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Post by glrogers67 on Aug 21, 2016 6:48:35 GMT
Welcome!! You have entered a space where all people are invited to gather to discuss matters of Spirituality, in mutual respect and friendliness: "Considering...Spirituality." Here, the focus is on personal spirituality and not dogma. We welcome with open arms people from any, all, and no religious/faith backgrounds, and those who practice spirituality on their own, to join us for a discussion centered on a higher consciousness. Each day there will be a quote, question, or discussion prompt presented for all to ponder and respond to.
**In maintaining an atmosphere of comfort and trust, we do not allow proselytizing (the effort of trying to convert others) or the denigrating of the religions and viewpoints of others. We also avoid bringing up topics such as politics, hot button social issues, or anything that can be considered divisive**
As this was a WW board, we also discuss our personal wellness, including our weight management program. We share our struggles and our triumphs regarding such as well as discuss things like family, friends, jobs, hobbies, outside interests, etc... We strive to build each other up with loving support in a positive manner. Let us not ever tear one another down in any way, shape or form.
Regular thread starters for the time being are:
Sunday, Monday, Tuesday: Gary / Wednesday, Thursday, Friday: Holly
Yet if anyone is so inclined, please feel free to start a new thread by beginning with the title: "Considering ... (topic)," post this introduction (by way of copy & paste) then follow that with a post putting forth a question and/or quote (with or without some explanation) for us to ponder today. The topic can be inspired by your personal faith, but please do remember that anyone from other spiritual paths should be able to answer it.
Shalom, Love & Light, Blessed Be, Namaste...
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Post by glrogers67 on Aug 21, 2016 6:57:02 GMT
The following is from a talk given by Elder Dale G. Renlund, our newest Apostle:
While living in Africa, I sought advice from Elder Wilford W. Andersen of the Seventy about helping Saints who live in poverty. Among the remarkable insights he shared with me was this: “The greater the distance between the giver and the receiver, the more the receiver develops a sense of entitlement.”
This principle underlies the Church’s welfare system. When members are not able to meet their own needs, they turn first to their families. Thereafter, if necessary, they can also turn to their local Church leaders for assistance with their temporal needs.1 Family members and local Church leaders are closest to those in need, frequently have faced similar circumstances, and understand best how to help. Because of their proximity to the givers, recipients who receive help according to this pattern are grateful and less likely to feel entitled.
The concept—“the greater the distance between the giver and the receiver, the more the receiver develops a sense of entitlement”—also has profound spiritual applications. Our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, are the ultimate Givers. The more we distance ourselves from Them, the more entitled we feel. We begin to think that we deserve grace and are owed blessings. We are more prone to look around, identify inequities, and feel aggrieved—even offended—by the unfairness we perceive. While the unfairness can range from trivial to gut-wrenching, when we are distant from God, even small inequities loom large. We feel that God has an obligation to fix things—and fix them right now!
Today's q/q: Have you ever had a need for financial assistance and didn't know where to turn? What do you think the concept raised by Elder Renlund? What about the idea of spiritual entitlement?
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Post by glrogers67 on Aug 21, 2016 6:58:55 GMT
Wow, I just noticed I am now a Junior Member with my 55 posts on this forum!
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Post by christinall on Aug 21, 2016 12:46:00 GMT
The following is from a talk given by Elder Dale G. Renlund, our newest Apostle: While living in Africa, I sought advice from Elder Wilford W. Andersen of the Seventy about helping Saints who live in poverty. Among the remarkable insights he shared with me was this: “The greater the distance between the giver and the receiver, the more the receiver develops a sense of entitlement.” This principle underlies the Church’s welfare system. When members are not able to meet their own needs, they turn first to their families. Thereafter, if necessary, they can also turn to their local Church leaders for assistance with their temporal needs.1 Family members and local Church leaders are closest to those in need, frequently have faced similar circumstances, and understand best how to help. Because of their proximity to the givers, recipients who receive help according to this pattern are grateful and less likely to feel entitled. The concept—“the greater the distance between the giver and the receiver, the more the receiver develops a sense of entitlement”—also has profound spiritual applications. Our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, are the ultimate Givers. The more we distance ourselves from Them, the more entitled we feel. We begin to think that we deserve grace and are owed blessings. We are more prone to look around, identify inequities, and feel aggrieved—even offended—by the unfairness we perceive. While the unfairness can range from trivial to gut-wrenching, when we are distant from God, even small inequities loom large. We feel that God has an obligation to fix things—and fix them right now! Today's q/q: Have you ever had a need for financial assistance and didn't know where to turn? What do you think the concept raised by Elder Renlund? What about the idea of spiritual entitlement? I agree with the Elder wholeheartedly. I have been self sustaining since the age if 18. I lived alone and with room mates and then my husband. Never have I asked for nor received public assistance, Medicaid, food stamps or asked a parent, church or family member for money. I have eaten free cookies and endless cups of free coffee and tea as my breakfast and lunch at the banking job I had years ago. People are KIND. My landlady GAVE me an old set of pots and pans with the excuse that she was throwing them away. I know she felt sorry for me and gave from her heart. She sent meals up to my apartment with her kids. In exchange I would take them to Church for her on Sundays and keep them in my apartment or out for walks to the library on Saturday afternoons. Perhaps if i had some far away government assistance i may not have learned to reciprocate a kindness with a kindness. |
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Post by hollygail on Aug 21, 2016 14:44:02 GMT
And this is what we Jews learn.
Maimonides (Hebrew: Moses ben Maimon, Arabic: Musa ibn Maymun; b. 1135, Spain; d. 1204, Egypt), physician to kings (court physician to the Grand Vizier Al Qadi al Fadil, then to Sultan Saladin, after whose death he remained a physician to the royal family) is recognized in Judaism as one of the greatest scholars of all time. He taught (and yes, I do teach Maimonides’ “ladder of tzedakah,” which I translate as righteous giving, and some people translate as “charity”) the following.
There are eight levels of tzedakah, each greater than the next. Beginning with the lowest “rung” on the ladder, they are:
[8] When one gives unwillingly.
[7] When one gives inadequately, but gives gladly and with a smile.
[6] When one gives to the receiver after being asked.
[5] When one gives to the receiver directly into his hand, but gives before being asked.
[4] When one does not know to whom one gives, but the receiver does know the benefactor. The greatest sages used to tie coins into their robes and throw them behind their backs, and receivers would come up and pick the coins out of their robes, so that they would not be ashamed.
[3] When one knows to whom one gives, but the recipient does not know the benefactor. The greatest sages used to walk about in secret and put coins in the doors of the receivers. It is worthy and truly good to do this, if those who are responsible for distributing collected funds are not trustworthy.
[2] When one gives to the poor without knowing to whom one gives, and without the recipient knowing from whom s/he received. For this is performing a mitzvah (in this sense, “good deed”) solely for the sake of Heaven. This is like the “anonymous fund” that was in the Temple in Jerusalem. There the righteous gave in secret, and the receivers received in secret. Giving to a fund is similar to this mode, though one should not contribute to such a fund unless one knows that the person appointed over the fund is trustworthy and wise and a proper administrator.
[1] The greatest level, above which there is no greater, is to support a person by endowing him with a gift or loan, or entering into a partnership with the individual, or finding employment for him/her, in order to strengthen his/her hand until s/he need no longer be dependent upon others.
The language I use with pre-teens is not quite this intense, but I try my best to keep the “flavor” and underlying significance of Maimionides’ teaching regardless of the age of my students.
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Post by glrogers67 on Aug 21, 2016 17:44:19 GMT
One of the things that keeps coming up in my relationship with my gf is that I am quite self-centered. I must admit much of it is true although I think I am a little less so now. I (we when I was married) have received LDS church assistance with food orders and for a short time financial (in which the church paid my mortgage payment). At the time, I did feel entitled since I have paid tithing to the church since I joined in 1972. I have also received financial assistance from the family business. I am now financially doing very well especially since I started drawing Social Security. Now, with maturity, I feel much less "entitled" but grateful for what I have received. I do contribute monthly to the LDS humanitarian aid fund, fast offering fund, and missionary fund in addition to tithing.
What struck me about Elder Renlund's talk was the part about spiritual entitlement. This is an area in which I still need improvement, which comes from regular, sincere prayer and scripture study as well as learning to be more charitable myself.
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Post by christinall on Aug 21, 2016 21:01:29 GMT
I see what you are saying Gary. The Catholic church never really allows you that sense of spiritual entitlement. We are Supposed to offer up our suffering to Jesus on the cross.
If we are suffering hunger then we are closer to Jesus.
We offer our suffering as a sacrifice for His giving up his life on the cross for our sins.
So no matter how much you pray, tithe, give charity, forgive debts, you are still not "entitled" in any way spiritually.
We also self support our own parishes which would be similar to what you call a ward.
We pay light and gas and maintenance of the buildings, salaries etc...
Once a year there is a bishops appeal for donations to your specific parish in case things run short.
We do not get help from the vatican.
In cases of illness where people are physically unable to self support my heart and money goes out.
Otherwise I'd rather help someone get back in their feet.
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Post by glrogers67 on Aug 22, 2016 1:43:05 GMT
Christina, that is the whole idea behind our Fast and Testimony Sunday, usually the first Sunday of every month. We are suppose to fast for 2 consecutive meals (in essence a 24 hour fast) and contribute the value of the missed meals (or more) to the church's Fast offering fund which is used to feed the poor in the church. The spiritual and physical benefits of fasting are well-documented although I seem to get a headache when I fast so I haven't done it much lately (probably caffeine withdrawal as I drink a couple of Dr. Peppers every day). Our church buildings are maintained through tithing funds.
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Post by hollygail on Aug 22, 2016 4:49:32 GMT
There's an organization called "Mazon: A Jewish Response to Hunger" (the first word is pronounced maaaahhhhh-ZOHN and can be translated as "meal" as in what one eats, not what you get when you grind corn). The organization feeds the hungry all over the world, regardless of who the individuals may be. They give out envelopes to Jewish organizations and ask for 3% of what it cost you to cater an event (for instance, at my wedding) and/or to donate the amount of money you'd have spent on a fast day (like Yom Kippur) had you eaten instead of fasting.
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